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1st / 2nd attention terminology….
Posted: 09 July 2010 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I notice that this term has disappeared over the years, or become at lot less used in newer courses/literature.

Was this simply because it was so close to “concious / subconcious” that is was dropped as redundant ? If so, that makes sense- most people understand the (general) concept of concious/subconcious, but 1st/2nd attention was pretty much known only by those in NLP (way back - not sure when the term was dropped, so I suspect recent practicioners aren’t aware it even existed).

Or is it because it simply didn’t work as well ? (ie, it almost implies that information gets picked up by the concious mind 1st, which is incorrect….).

If anyone can enlighten me to this piece of NLP’s evolution, it would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any insights shared !

-Paul

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Paul CR Harrison
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Posted: 12 July 2010 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Hi Paul

I’m not too sure who taught you what or what framing they had on it, because i’m not you smile

However from the perspectiive that we teach here at the Academy, we frame them as perceptual positions.

1st position: from your own filters, your in the experience.

2nd position: Stepping into someone else shoes, not literally of course, this is a great way to experience someone else’s filters or see their perspective on a particular event, very good in conflictr management, business meetings ect…

3rd position: looking into a event from a outsiders perspective, stepping back, this gives you a very clear analysis of a event, without your filters and emotion attached to it, this is applicable in all contexts.

I hope this makes things a little clearer.

Jack Carroll

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Posted: 13 July 2010 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Hi Jack - Thanks for the reply !

Perceptual positions - 1st, 2nd, 3rd- we covered that.

The 1st/2nd attention was used in place of conscious / unconscious minds back in the 90’s and early 2000’s, it’s also used in “Turtles all the way down”, but it seems to have disappeared from current training.

I’m beginning to think the term disappeared because it was misleading, but I’m hoping someone out there is actually aware of the specific “why” the term was changed (ie, what was the outcome of the change, or was the original intention of 1st/2nd attention term not being met, and was better met with conscious/unconscious mind).

Thanks for the reply though, Jack smile. Looks like I found a puzzle that might interest you also smile.

-Paul

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Paul CR Harrison
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Posted: 13 July 2010 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Hi Paul

I always like a mystery smile

Jack C

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Posted: 15 July 2010 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Ok, I think I might have the puzzle a bit further figured out…. if anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct smile

In older NLP New Code (mid-90’s to early possibly mid 2000’s):
Term:
“1st Attention” : Used in place of “concious mind”, definition was almost the same.
“2nd Attention” : Used in place of “unconcious mind”, definition was almost the same.

There was a presupposition (if I understood / remember correctly) that the 1st attention would act as a “gatekeeper” for the 2nd attention (unconcious mind). In the current models (2008 and later, definitely), this is misleading.

In the NLPedia, they don’t use “1st / 2nd attention” terminology, but concious / unconcious mind.

They also talk about FA (First Access), then the F1 and F2 filters (language representation, then the deletions/distortions/generalizations).

Information actually comes in through senses first, then gets processed by the unconcious, then delievered up to the concious (in context of previous experience). The concious mind actually gets it last - and although it’s role is to analyze it (and “Captain the Ship”, if you use Dr. Mike Mandel’s model that the concious mind acts as a captain and the unconcious acts as the navigator - and rest of the crew).

So “1st attention” terminology doesn’t fit the current model - not very well. It’s actually misleading, since in the current model information hits the senses and unconcious first.

There’s more, but I think that gets the point nicely. Next question is “what was the original intention behind making those terms in the first place” (think I’ll have to re-read “Turtles all the way down” first for answers there - not even sure if the answer has any real use, though, but sometimes things in the past can be useful again in the future if you just care to occasionally re-evaluate or clean them up a bit, you never know).

Jack, you’ve been following this - any insights to the above ? (I’m not speaking with authority on the subject - just observations of things I’ve noticed, and trying to fit them to a pattern that makes sense).

I’ve noticed a few other changes in NLP over the years, but still digging info out myself before I post more questions smile. Only have a small number of “free hours” per week to post these sort of things smile

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Posted: 29 March 2011 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I think my original “guess” at what happened to 1st/2nd attention terminology may have been completely incorrect….

I was re-reading some of Carlos’ Castaneda’s books the other day. He was using the 1st / 2nd attention terminology.

Paraphrasing a bit…
“The first attention in man is animal awareness, which has been developed, through the process of experience, into a complex, intricate, and extremely fragile faculty that takes care of the day-to-day world in all its innumerable aspects. In other words, everything that one can think about is part of the first attention.” (direct quote)

“The second attention is a more complex and specialized state of awareness. It has to do with the unknown. it is the vastest field that one can imagine, so vast in fact that it seems limitless. The concentration needed to be aware that one is having a dream is the forerunner of the second attention. That concentration is a form of consciousness that is not in the same category as the consciousness needed to deal with the daily world.” (paraphrased, cut out a lot of irrelevant info).

Remember that the original NLP pioneers were influenced by some of the works of Carlos’ Castaneda. The original NLP books were “The Structure of Magic”. There’s a lot in NLP about “altering states” (to get access to more resourced states, typically, but also extends to playing with the generalization/edits/deletion filters).

In much of Castaneda’s work (which is fiction - always remember that. Lots of insight there - but it is fiction !) the theme that we “don’t really see the real world”, that our everyday mind only sees an interpretation (representation) of it, comes up repeatedly.

I actually rather like the 1st/2nd attention terminology more than the conscious/unconscious mind terminology that we now use. It gives NLP a more artfully vague feel to it.

Thought I’d share that with folks, the “old timers” that took their training in the 90’s may remember the 1st/2nd attention terminology.

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Posted: 30 March 2011 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Hi paul good to hear from you.

Hmmm very interesting, what is your conclusion on this?

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Posted: 30 March 2011 11:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Several good insights.

One very practical insight : It can make change work much easier on the practitioner.

In hypnosis, one of the key things is to bypass the “critical factor” to reach the unconscious mind. Capture attention, bypass critical factor by distraction or compliance-set work, then do the change work. That’s part of the conscious-unconscious model of the mind (well, one of several… ).

The 1st/2nd attention model doesn’t have a “critical factor” to worry about. Instead you engage the person’s 2nd attention, and have that part of it that acts as the “controller” for all the “personality parts” work with you to come up with a more useful and ecological whole.

Instead of “getting around the barrier that prevents change”, you are instead “working with the part that is responsible for it”. It’s just a model, yet it makes the end result (which is same at the end of the day) easier on the practitioner. It presupposes recruiting an ally that helps you rather than sneaking past the guardian of the gate.


The original works (of Castaneda) imply 2nd attention to be more of a “full awareness”. The part of the “whole mind” that connects with “reality” (the world outside of our filters). The original NLP definition of 2nd attention is much more down to earth, it’s the “whole mind” that contains all resources and resource-knots, everything outside the filters, and connects us to the body (that last part I’m a bit vague on).

For hypnosis work, “unconscious” is simply “everything not the conscious mind”. Plus “unconscious” includes the body (“feelings” aren’t in the head - they are in the body…. “emotions are feelings”, and every emotion can be described by the feelings it generates in the body. It’s possible to say that the “unconscious mind is also the body-mind”).


Personal thought- I think the whole “1st attention/2nd attention” model could be cleaned up a bit, and made into a very viable model to use as an alternative to “Conscious / Unconscious”. One that gets past limits in the “Conscious / Unconscious mind” model (not saying it could replace it, there are things the C/Un-C model work very well for as it is).

At the end of the day - “Having a variety of models to choose from is a good thing”. Pick the model that works best for the issues at hand, switch if it’s not doing the job right. Having choices and options are good.

(There’s more insights I gained from examining the roots of 1st/2nd attention, and comparing it to conscious/unconscious , but most of them were “just neat”, this one I posted seems potentially useful and practical.)


Thoughts, anyone ?

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