NLP Academy Forums

Nice new looking forum. My name is Alistair I did my practitioner training with the academy in March. I have to say it was the best two weeks I have ever had and my thirst is only slightly stronger than my hunger to learn more and more each day. I work with my unconscious daily and think I am getting results. I say think because I am deliberately not thinking about it hope that makes sense. I am attempting to generate spontaneous new behaviours to help my situation and find myself doing new things that kind of just “pop” into my head. I have been working with my friends UC as well and while I cannot be totally sure colds and headaches have disappeared for them. I have to say the more I learn new code the more I get excited. My excitement usually sees me getting completely lost in intrepid adventures of the mind but it usually just takes an epistemological clip round the ear to bring me back to new code camp. In light of that apologies for asking any questions that are by and large irrelevant or appear like I am trying to find something wrong or even look like I am trying to repackage anything. My intention for asking some questions is so that I get a better feel for what is “not” NLP. Probably academic residue left from my previous adventures…

I am really interested in the new code and its applications. I have some xperience in the old code. How did the new code work for you peronsally?

Dan

Alistair_Donnell - 13 October 2009 02:20 PM

Nice new looking forum. My name is Alistair I did my practitioner training with the academy in March. I have to say it was the best two weeks I have ever had and my thirst is only slightly stronger than my hunger to learn more and more each day. “

Hello Alistair!  Here is some good cool water for you. I try to keep some on hand at all times!

That is awesome. I am so glad to hear that your training was such a good and life changing experience.
And your teachers must be very pleased to have a student so motivated to continue learning.  I know as a college teacher how
happy it makes me when one of my students really get’s the important stuff in his or her bones and continues to explore and to learn after the course ends!

work with my unconscious daily and think I am getting results. I say think because I am deliberately not thinking about it hope that makes sense. I am attempting to generate spontaneous new behaviours to help my situation and find myself doing new things that kind of just “pop” into my head. I have been working with my friends UC as well and while I cannot be totally sure colds and headaches have disappeared for them. I have to say the more I learn new code the more I get excited. 

That is really good and important!  And Yes, it make sense. There are even times in the process of gaining new kills and habits that I have found it impossible to even say that much.  There was a period after initial NLP Training when I was working on my doctoral degree and found myself unable to think at all. I could not any longer understand or just “talk” using my old way of thinking—but nor was I at a point with the new developing ones that I could use these

I discussed this with another Philosopher friend- who although she had little interest in the topics I pursued- really grasped the situation. She was , in addition to a philosopher, a dancer formally trained in Western dance .She shared with me her experience going to India and learning to do Indian dance.  At first,s he found the very different sorts of steps and movements very difficult and had to watch that she did not fall into Western Patterns while trying to learn this new skill. S he came to a point , however, where he could no longer do the Western steps or even remember how to hold herself and use her muscles in that context. Yet, she found herself also still unable to do the Indian dance movements. It was a very frustrating time.

Eventually she found that she could do the Indian dance movements on their own terms and she noticed that she was no longer constantly comparing what she did to Western ways. She still could not do the Western dance . After a few years though she was able to do either easily and well.

Her story helped me a great deal. Although it did not make me comfortable at that moment—I understood that I was in a process that was stretching me well beyond my previous map. Eventually, I was able to write the dissertation—being true to the western and non-Western philosophical traditions and experiences reflected in my work.  And many years later I found that I could easily move between these ways of organizing and understanding experience. Even more importantly, I gained the ability to move easily between cultures—in NLP term to really adopt second position—to move out of second into myself—to observe what was happening in process from a variety of perspectives.

This is for me the heart of NLP.  I call this “Playful World Travel”—drawing on some recent philosophers work on communication across cultures.

My excitement usually sees me getting completely lost in intrepid adventures of the mind but it usually just takes an epistemological clip round the ear to bring me back to new code camp.

I am not sure I’m following you here. Do you mean that in this excitement you find yourself question more thing? exploring more possibilities in epistemology? Or lost in your own imagination?

In light of that apologies for asking any questions that are by and large irrelevant or appear like I am trying to find something wrong or even look like I am trying to repackage anything. My intention for asking some questions is so that I get a better feel for what is “not” NLP. Probably academic residue left from my previous adventures…

Academic residue! Boy am I familiar with that stuff !  Yes, there is a norm in many academy circles that to simply
attack other words because- well you CAN..is a good thing. Tearing other academic apart without regard to the impact of this on either the academic products or the persons can become peculiarly acceptable and normal—especially in fields like Philosophy!!!
The reason for such behavior is always that they need to protect the integrity of their subfield.  They perceive the way of doing this is to distinguish carefully what does from what does not count as a part of that subfield.

I think the negative question about fields in philosophy works much like the same question in the context of NLP.  It serves little purpose but to attack person and constrain the full development of the field.

So for example,  instead of asking what is NOT NLP or what is NOT New Code…

We can ask—How can we best describe a particular experience using NLP tools? 
hat has been modeled in the field so far—
What else might be valuable to model which has not yet been modeled?
How might different models affect and deepen our understanding of the structure of subjective experience?

and so forth.

Very Best

Renee

Hi, Renee.

Valid reasons to contrast New Code with other fields of NLP include:

* different procedures under the same name
* different interpretations of phenomena under the same name
* different ethics for roles with the same title
* different epistemologies for subfields studying the same domain

It’s less a matter of excluding people than it is about whether you notice or acknowledge the many differences that are likely there. Usually the exclusion happens when one or both sides do not argue.

-Noah

Hello Noah!

My suggestion to Alistair was certainly not NOT to create a contrast. Contrast and differences are the stuff that makes everything what it is ...and interesting besides!

There are two aspects to the last point I make in that post (and also I do not know whether I understood what Alistair means when he talked about apologizing about questioning everything to see what is and is not new Code—so the relevance of my point to his discussion is not clear. I am not clear whether he thinks such questioning is an effective way to learn or not )

What I was suggesting is that when you are trying to learn something new—constant contrast and jumping on people to “test” them or yourself may not be the most effective way to achieve that goal. 

As long as I question everything and everyone, I am not living into the thing I want to learn. I am also likely to annoy the heck out of people who could actually be helpful (whether that help would come via their modeling new code approaches—or presenting a contrast to it or something else entirely))

Certainly, differences will need to be discussed and explored—just not artificially provoked.  The response to such provocation will likely have nothing to do with New Code NLP and everything to do with the provocation!  Let me deliberately commit a major Meta- Model Violation *Big Grin*

It is NEVER appropriate nor helpful in a discussion to attack the person instead of addressing the argument and content of their posts.

Renee

Sure Renee. Well, cultists and salespeople agree, an argument is sometimes inappropriate. Hints are nice, but sometimes just hand dinner over with the glass of water, and leave the dancing until later.

If somatics models human movement as part of experience of states, and states create experience usually misdescribed as due to external causes, or cumulative effects from past behaviors, then explanations for the success of fields like Feldenkrais, or hypnosis, are not far away. Examples that occur to me include the red-light, green-light model or Dilts interesting distinction about looking up versus looking down, or the vestibular model from Leaves or just that old point about hearing better depending on your jaw position.  These low-level but universally present physiological indicators have an omnipresence , and challenge me to streamline and simplify complex explanations of people’s motivations or for people’s actions. The variety of configurations of human behavior support a multiplicity of explanations or rationalizations for behavior that rests of a small substrate of necessary conditions for occurence. Those conditions provide the leverage points for change in people, working with myself, or working with others (hypothetically). So they take fewer words, and less jargon or bull.

You can keep in mind how people create explanations after the fact, leaving it clear that they never acknowledge what they are explaining, but instead only the explanation. A simplicity of explanation in New Code respects that tendency in people, it is worth keeping that aspect of Dr. Grinder’s work. It’s laudable. If you want to advance New Code, you might advance just that aspect, proposing simple but rigorous explanations. It would respect my intentions during discussion, at least. “CAPITAL LETTERS”

Usually, commercial interests complicate, overlabel, dance around the obvious, letting the consultant overcharge for basic-level support. Packaging can support layer upon layer of certification, obfuscation, terminology, without need or benefit to clients or students, and cost everyone much more, leaning on our stress response while we function with more severity, trying to squeeze a little more jargon out our asses before we give up and call technical support. I think of Richard Bandler, with his overhyped and obscenely expensive certification requirements, or for that matter, the multi-level certifications proposed around ... here.

In this case, providing information on-line with no financial reward, your intentions could lean toward selling your business. So, if you have factual, useful information to share, go for it. I see Mr. Carroll do that, and I like it. Dr. Grinder and Ms. Bostic St. Clair did that with WITW, fought the tendency to sell with hype only, and provided particulars. Their modeling emphasis is true, it will dissolve overpartitioned financial management of learning, and just let people know what they can do for free, as in, free speech, or free food. Anyhow,  NLper’s with a wig on just to say their subfield has merit tend to avoid discussing the specifics in open forums, for some reason.

(I posted a lot today, I’m going to try not to post for a little while)

I’m afraid I find that last post impossible to follow.

Other than your Bandler comment, I am unsure what NLP tendencies you are criticizing on what basis.
I’m also not sure what you are claiming about NLPer’s and open forums and wigs

Best

Renee