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I swish I knew what I was doing
Posted: 06 October 2009 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Hey all,

Please could somebody tell my why, specifically, when performing the swish pattern the client should be in the cue image, and not be in the outcome image?

Also, how do you identify the trigger for each?

Many thanks in advance,

Tony.

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Posted: 06 October 2009 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Tony

Cue image: associated so full VAK circuitry is activated. The outcome picture becomes associated with the VAK circuits of the present state.*  The creators of the pattern (Bandler and Christina Hall)  ‘focussed’ on the visual nature of the representations. I think the pattern more effective when you the client is aware of kinesthetics and auditory elements which may actually be the triggger.

The outcome picture remains disassociated so the unconscioous mind holds it as a representation as a compelling ongoing representation. Again this is how the creators of the pattern set it up.

A designer swish would have the outcome image set up in the structure (subodalities) way the client has experienced change in the past. Such a swish would overlap structurally with the map accross.

Michael

* People trained in the New Code NLP will appreciate the value of getting full VAK circuitry

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Posted: 06 October 2009 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thank you Michael, although I am still a little confused.

In my understanding, taking a second position on the cue image would cause the client to disassociate from it in terms of VAK. And the first position as used in the Outcome image would facilitate VAK. From your response it ‘sounds’ like this is not the case in this instance. Would you have the client elicit the image in first person, then ensure that they are moved to second whilst holding the image, then create the representational Outcome image, almost as if from Third position? If this is the case, I can see the value of the association/disassociation. If not, maybe I need to review my understanding of perceptual positions, and the swish pattern! Eek!

I agree entirely, as one fortunate enough to have trained in New Code, on the value of full VAK.

Tony

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Posted: 06 October 2009 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Tony,

There is no second position in the swish. Second position is experiencing a representation as another. The creators of the pattern used the language of ‘asscociated’ and ‘disociated’.

1. Initially elicit present state VAK, fully associate.

2.Create compelling outcome picture disociated. The outcome picture has a different response at trigger point

3. Shrink outcome picture its small and out on horizon.

4. Get back present state image - outcome is out on the distance

5. Swish, ouctome swishes in while present image swishes out.

6. Test, if at trigger client has new response the work has been succesful

Remember the break states

Note the Swish is an OK pattern but nowhere near as effective as the New Code

Regards

Michael

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Posted: 07 October 2009 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Thanks once more Michael,

I can see where my confusion comes from.

In the traditional Bandler swish the intention was to have the client associate and dissociate from the images respectively. I was also taught to have them associate and dissociate with the image, but that the client should be ‘in the cue image’ (I’m supposing by this they mean seeing themselves in the image, as opposed to being submerged in the image), and not in the outcome image, with an emphasis on new code full VAK circuitry throughout. In this model, I would argue that the client takes a second position as they are seeing themselves through the eyes of another person, specifically, another them. Thus potentially hindering full VAK circuitry.

Regards,

Tony

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Posted: 07 October 2009 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Tony

YOu wrote

I was also taught to have them associate and dissociate with the image, but that the client should be ‘in the cue image’ (I’m supposing by this they mean seeing themselves in the image, as opposed to being submerged in the image), and not in the outcome image,

That’s not what I said in the steps I wrote in previous post. I said in cue (present state) the client is fully associated. In the outcome picture the client is disassociated that is client seeing himself/herself in the context performing differently at trigger. This is called third position looking in at self. I explained the developers’ intention in my first post.

Second position is where there is a specific person you assume their filters. It does not come into the swish at all.

Michael

[ Edited: 07 October 2009 09:52 AM by Michael Carroll ]
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Posted: 07 October 2009 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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My apologies Michael,

Maybe then it amounts to my scribbled notes being wrong, or my model of perceptual positions when applied to self.

My understanding of the typical model of perceptual positions…

First - Through VAK of own - associated
Second - Through VAK of specific other - indirectly associated
Third - Through VAK of an observer - dissociated

If these rules were literally translated into self

First - fully VAK associated (If you create in image which you are submerged in, with VAK is present it would be viewed from first.)
Second - indirectly associated, through the VAK of yourself, observing yourself (If you were to create an image which contained you doing something, it would be viewed from second position.)
Third - using the VAK of yourself to observe yourself as if you were dissociated (If you created an image which had no visual representation of yourself and no VAK, this would be third.)

Tony

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Posted: 07 October 2009 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Tony

I suggest you take a look at the manual for a descrpition on the three positions. I will make some comments in your text

Second - indirectly associated, through the VAK of yourself, observing yourself (If you were to create an image which contained you doing something, it would be viewed from second position.)

Second is where you associate to another person’s experience. You see it and hear it through as if through their eyes and ears. Useful in modelling and for getting another person’s perspctive.

Third - using the VAK of yourself to observe yourself as if you were dissociated (If you created an image which had no visual representation of yourself and no VAK, this would be third.)

I am not sure how you can create an image of yourself with no VAK, particulraly no V

The visual and auditory representations of third - are you would see and hear in your case Tony in a given context. You would also see all the other people in the context.  The kinesthics of third are usually more objective than that of first.

Michael

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Posted: 01 December 2009 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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” * People trained in the New Code NLP will appreciate the value of getting full VAK circuitry “

and if they choose to use Swish they might also use the n step process in combination with a swish to ensure ecology and longevity of change.

With that in mind….

Is it possible to set up a signal system with someone else without telling a story about someone setting up a signal system?

My gut is telling me yes and I’d like to experience doing it.

Any tips

With thanks

James

[ Edited: 01 December 2009 03:59 PM by James Lawson ]
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